WeAreTheKey

What is God.

lets put a subtext to ensure there is no confusion on what I mean by the word "God". By god I mean the entity that is "divine" I am saying not a specific religions god, not a male or female. Just What do YOU believe is the entity "god"?

"God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that."
Joseph Campbell

Good quote BUT that only defines god from Joseph Campbells perspective... I asked what YOU belive is god... [/i]

Everyone's a bit hesitant to dip their toes into this one....heh.
I for one cannot quite define "God" him/itself as to what he actually IS, I can only piece together various qualities or attributes of god's character and intention, and thereby trace them back as far as possible to try and make out a vague silhouette of what he might be.
But I don't really focus much on what he "is". More so what he's doing with us, intends for us, desires or hopes for us, and how we as a species can come closer to fulfilling our ultimate potential on a mental/spiritual/societal level, which would intevitably bring us as close as possible to 'god' without physically touching him.
It's kind of like knowing nothing about a painter who lived long, long ago, but finding a warehouse full of his paintings, thousands of them. You may never know any more specifically about the painter through direct knowledge, but by studying all the qualities of all the paintings, you would slowly but surely come to understand more and more about what he thought, felt, desired, dreamed and hoped, through indirectly absorbing information, obvious or subtle, through all of his works. There's a lot of detail that most people would surely miss...and the more you trained your eye to catch those details, the better you would understand the painter.
In this same way I believe that by studying our planet, our fellow humans, our human mind, nature, science, art and history etc...
We can piece together much about the ideas, concepts and intentions behind this life of ours, from god's perspective...

This by no means sums up my feelings on god, just a small tidbit I thought I'd throw out to break the ice a bit on this subject.
What you guys think?!

My two cents:

"God" defined as the omnipotent, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good being that ultimately controls the universe is a completely ridiculous and contradictive concept to me and can only exist individually within our mind. Every person has a different concept of "God" based on their personal and social experiences and no two are the same. Therefore, "God" is simply explained as "unknowable" and used to explain that which we are as yet unable to explain. It is an inconceivable concept.

"God" defined simply as "Creator" is, again, an unknowable concept that exists only because humans cannot conceive of the how the original creation of the universe began. To believe that some sort of "life form" created our universe is certainly not a ridiculous concept, and is as rational as any other possibility.

However, I believe that linking the two definitions of "God" is faulty. Because the universe exists does not mean that whatever started the existence is omnipotent or omniscient. There is certainly nothing to indicate that a Creator "God" is all-good.

As for earthly religions... just because pieces of "inspired works" may have a "good message" does not have any bearing on Truth (aw, every religion's favorite word). It is inconceivable that an "Omnipotent God" would have "inspired" any of the earthly religous texts. And simply a "Creator God" has no bearing on morality or "goodness", so why would we worship Him/It/They?

Im short on time currently but a quick bit to toss about..


Who says we have to Worship?
Why cant we just feel, think deicide wether we believe and if so (or not) Appreciate. I think there is too much emphasis on worship and not enough on what is important. I dont that think if god is a conscious being we were created to simply boost gods ego on an everyday basis(or at all), I think it has less to do with god being placated or happy and more of us attaining a higher standard of existence...
I'll elaborate a little later...

Prasutagus, you make some good points.
For the sake of debate I would ask you the following:

"God" defined as the omnipotent, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good being that ultimately controls the universe is a completely ridiculous and contradictive concept to me"

What specifically about this definition of god is contradictory and/or ridiculous? If God were able to create an entire universe and populate it with millions of life-forms in a harmonious ecosystem etc, then he would surely be defined as "omnipotent, all-knowing, all-powerful", that's not too much of a stretch...

As for the "all-good" aspect, I think most people probably assume that if you are a being of the highest order, with the highest level mind-function, and can see all suffering and all love throughout time, then you would have no logical basis for being anything other than "all-good", as there would be no ego to fulfill, and no selfish drive within you, which are the things that lead to being "less-than-good"

I agree that assuming the existence of a "creator" god simply out of not knowing or understanding our origins is pretty weak. There has to be more than that to back it up.

Our Earthly religions do not necessarily have bearing on "Truth", as you say, but considering that most all of our religions do share almost identical basic principles, i.e. 'Love thy neighbor, compassion, brotherhood, respect, forgiveness, humility, peace' etc... these could be considered "universal truths" which pieced together probably represent the highest ideals of a "god", and the basis for an evolved/advanced society of the future. And so that would make a book like the Bible actually have bearing on "Truth", wouldn't it? Atleast the latter parts of it with Jesus and all...right?

I would say that much of what Buddhism teaches has a bearing on Truth, what Jesus taught had bearing on Truth, the Tao te Ching has bearing on Truth, etc, etc... doesn't mean that any particular one of them is "right", however they form metaphorically a multi-faceted diamond, with each religion forming one side, and the gem ultimately representing Universal Truth itself, and/or 'God' himself.

I definitely have my problems and issues with religion, but I have no problems separating god from religion. None of our religions may ultimately be "right" in their prophecies or creation tales etc... but that may not have anything to do with whether or not a god actually exists...
?

I enjoy these types of debates, they make one think. For stimulating debate, here are some counter-points:

1. As for the contradictions:
-If we have an all-everything God, that means that EVERYTHING that is done in the universe is ultimately for good. That means the 6 year-old child that is kidnapped, raped, beaten, and murdered is for good. That means the babies born addicted to crack from their mothers are for good. And mass genocide. And terminal cancer, etc, etc.....Those things, and many others, are not good....major contradiction. And, personally, I don't buy the "we just don't understand God's purpose" argument. An all-good God would not be sneaky and vague to His creation that he supposedly "loves", but would make sure they understand His purpose.

-To make matters worse with the all-everything God, we have no control over anything...everything that happens is all Him. Free will is a myth. You can't know everthing that is going to happen and give humans free will. It is a complete contradiction. We are nothing more that puppets. And even if you did impossibly reconcile those two oppositions, God STILL knows when the horrendous is going to happen, and He allows it (see above paragraph). That IS evil.

2. As for "universal" religiosity:
-What you describe is the essential philosophy (or theology) of the Bahai faith. Take the nice bits that you can find in each religous text (i.e. don't murder or steal) and claim that must be the Truth. That's great, but what does God have to do with it? The point of creating religous texts, other than to create a God to explain that which is unknown, is to create social order. One could argue that the common "nice" themes of the major world religions are simply common human social necessities for formed societies.

-Secondly, one could probably go through the vast texts of the major religions and create several different "common" religious philosophies, both for good and evil. The Common Theme approach is seemingly very subjective to what one wants to find. I'm sure if they wanted, Bahai could find what they were looking for out of the texts of L. Ron Hubbard and Alister Crowley to help support their "universal" religion philosophy (if they haven't already). Plus, just as the wants of the masses does not necessitate Right, worldly repeats of similar themes does not equal Godly Truth. Jesus, Budda, Mohammed, and the like may well have had some very insightful comments on the ways of the world and humanity, but that gives them no more access to the Truth than the insights of you, I, Alluscion, Hannah Montana, or Joseph Stalin.

"Love is the Law, Love under Will"
-Aleister Crowley

OHHH, Prasutagus you are a sneaky one...
A lot to cover here...ok, bear with me, this is lengthy stuff to discuss:

1. "If we have an all-everything God, that means that EVERYTHING that is done in the universe is ultimately for good... the 6 year-old child that is kidnapped, raped, beaten, and murdered is for good."

This is a false premise that isn't necessarily true if God intended to allow us to choose our own path and our own destiny. He may have created us with an "all-good" intention, but giving us free-will to shape the world as we see fit allows much room for us to create societies where people are kidnapped, beaten, raped and killed. That is human doing, which clealry is not "all-good", but is not necessarily a reflection of whether or not god is
"all-good"...
There would also be no way for God to clearly and obviously let us "understand his purpose" without some miraculous daily apearance on the planet where he reminds everyone of just what his purpose is. That wouldn't make much sense...but many people believe that by looking inward into our own minds/souls and looking at humanity at large, that we can grasp what our purpose as humans is. I won't tell you exactly what it is, but I would certainly start with abolishing wars, hunger, murder and hatred amongst our societies...before we get down to any 'finer details'.

2. The free-will debate has been long-running, but I don't see it as necessarily a contradiction. Just because God may know what is going to happen, does not mean that we won't be "freely choosing" that path. It seems at first like that's the case, but imagine if I could see just one day into the future, and see what you are going to eat for lunch tomorrow. OK, I've been provided a window into a future point in time, and I know what you will be FREELY choosing. That doesn't mean I caused you to choose leftover spaghetti, it just means that I KNEW what you would be eating. And as long as I don't interfere with your existence, that free-will is yours to keep. And since god may not interfere with our existence in any physical or large-scale way, that intevitably leaves room for "horrendous things to happen".
A lot of people fall back on this theory that if god exists, and god is pure love, then why do such horrible things happen on Earth?! Therefore, god must not be real.
Well let's just imagine if somehow miraculously bad things were not allowed to happen. Would this make any sense at all? An invisible force stopping your finger from pulling a gun trigger? An invisible force steering a drunk's car so it doesn't hit a family of four?
An invisible force keeping a glass window from shattering when a burglar tries to break in? It doesn't add up, we would have realized LONG ago that something fishy was going on, and we wouldn't have the free will to "choose" to do evil. Yes there are victims and horrible things take place, but unfortunately, that freedom for these things to happen must also exist. You see? That doesn't make god evil, that makes evil humans evil...

3. "One could argue that the common "nice" themes of the major world religions are simply common human social necessities for formed societies."

That would make sense if formed societies didn't exist before these religions. But they did. The Roman Empire was operating at a brisk pace before Jesus even hit the scene. So his philosophy was obviously not "necessary" for social order. Neither was it necessarily for the ancient Egyptians, who clearly knew how to get stuff done! In fact, fully functional societies existed long before Jesus, long before Buddha, long before any of these "prophets" who brought these "universal principles" into the mainstream. And the reason people associate them with God, is because they are NOT necessarily needed logically for a society to exist, but rather for a society to function harmoniously, for people to truly live in Peace, for humanity to love eachother for once, for people to treat eachother with dignity, compassion, respect and forgiveness. These ideas are seemingly not logical, as logic would tell us "kill or be killed. Do whatever it takes to survive. Have sex with as many people as humanly possible." etc...
These figures took life to the next level and showed that there could be something more to life, that by looking inward and using your heart you can live much more happily and peacefully.
These were actually revolutionary ideas at the time, not slowly formed over time through some subconscious "necessity", but thrown out by ONE MAN. (if you only count Jesus) So there's quite a difference.

"one could probably go through the vast texts of the major religions and create several different "common" religious philosophies, both for good and evil."

This is true, but they wouldn't represent the ultimate underlying principles of those religions. If you compare all of the major religions, you might find strands here and there that align in one way or another, but the idea is that the underlying foundation is the same. That is what makes them "universal truths" so to speak. They were not arbitrarily cherry-picked from the teachings to say "look what we found!", they are really fairly obvious. If you ask any random Christian was the basic teachings of Christianity are, you are likely to get a short summary of the teachings of Jesus, not a laundry list of the abstract hundreds of other rules that don't apply nearly as much... Jesus and Buddha would have been very close friends, because they both found the common core of the human heart, which is if anywhere, where god lies. Something that Joseph Stalin and Hannah Montana don't appear to be able to claim.
Their "insightful comments" did not give them "access to the truth", you are right.
Their insightful comments were the Truth itself.


Hey look at that, I just wrote a Novel!
Phew!

Wow, that is awesome, Transfixed! Very Impressive. I've got some work to do now, but I might try a feeble, useless response tomorrow. Take Care.

Cool! Your responses have been anything but feeble! Most people are pretty unwilling to really stick it out there and try to reasonably debate various points on topics so 'controversial'.
So it's great to go back and forth with people who are smart and know what they're talking about, which you clearly do! I think it's pretty fun as well :)

Damn.....
I just dont know if there is really anything I can say.. you guys beat this one to a pulp..

Welllll..hmmm.. I guess I will throw out a few of the things I believe god is... just cause..

First of all I dont consider myself a specific religion or belief system, but I do know more of Christianity personally than I do any others, I guess that has some influence, but not all.

God in human form is purely a human creation, it is a way for us to take the infinetness and place it in a manner that is comprehendable and graspable- not to mention im guessing a small portion may be related to human perspectives ego, but I would say its most likely its the first more than the latter..

the human form, while helpful is just an aide not truly of importance. God is energy, god is on a vibrational level. God is in everything, god is (in my opinion) consciousness. Perhaps god has a god of its own; perhaps god is not alone.

Perhaps we are just the thoughts and imagination of some artist a million light years away? We cant really know but really all specuations and feelings are important, I think there is purpose in everything. I think 'bad" has to unforunatly happen, for if there is no bad how could there be 'good'?
I obviously dont Know what god is .. no one does.. therefore no one is right no one is wrong.. it is for the induvidual to decide.

Here comes a little bit of what I feel to be true. There is a path; an Ideal path that each person, and all humanity must Choose to take. We being creatures gifted with the ability to reason, feel and freely make choices, decide through our lives which path we take. Each descion we make takes us in a direction, sometimes we make mistake; sometimes were on track; some times we get stuck, but we can always take the next road..

The path is the HOPE of god, to reach the ultimate goal of being Like the being that is god. It seems inconceivable that a human could attain the essence of god, but to me, god is not a Power thing. God is not to be worshiped. God is to be Connected to be Love. Humans have amazing potential to to things with their minds hearts and bodies things that seem impossible. Why would we be able to achieve such things if we arent to be utilizing them? ( I realize this simple statement could be taken in amilion directions to "disprove" or "disagree' with the concept of god being a good entity but really this is what I believe so take what you want)

I think attaining the highest of internal evolution is essentially the goal.. why? who knows? Wanna discuss it? Sure. I'd love to try and solidify my understanding of what I believe and maybe cut out some of the things that dont make sense. I might be misguided but the one thing I know inside my HEART is that there is some sort of energy out there that connects us all, and that it is a positive energy that desires to connect with itself.

Alluscion,

We have a lot in common with our views. You several times state "perhaps God is this, perhaps God is that". You acknowledge the unknown nature of the universe, it's creation, and it's purpose.

My "feelings" about a potential God are not as set as yours, and I'm not even as convinced in any assertions that a "God" exists, insomuch as God can be defined.

I am much more contented with my life believing that it is what I choose to make of it, and that no otherworldly Being or lifeforce is deciding my afterlife based on some godly lawcode, or some supposed sayings by ancient philosophers (Moses, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Confucian, etc.), or an unknown natural path for humanity that I don't know anything about. I try to do what I think is best in each situation, and the true test of my lifetime will be the effects that I had on the people that I cared about and the legacy that I left my children and grandchildren.

If there is a God, who is hiding somewhere that I can't see him, and he only left vague references to his Creation in writings hundreds or thousands of years ago, then why should I be trying to find him if He's not interested in finding me, or the billions of people who have lived on this earth before me that didn't find him either.

Another long one, Prepare Thyself!

I would maybe suggest that trying to "find" god is something that should be totally and completely separated from any particular writings or religions. A lot of people seem to fuse the concept of 'god' and 'religion' so tightly together in their minds, that once religion has been taken apart, they view the existence of god as being taken apart as well.

Imagine if god does exist, but none of our major religions are true reflections of him, and don't fully express his true purpose or desires? It seems like that would be really frustrating for god, having everyone scour through ancient texts looking for him, when he's right in front of them all along...

I don't personally believe that the Bible has all the answers, or any other book. How could god have relied on books to express his infinite and universal nature? It seems like a poor method of communication. So what could he have done to assure that every human has access to the knowledge of universal principles, and conscious inter-connectedness of all things? How can he guarantee that everone can know something??

Only one way: Put it inside of everone. Allow everyone the ability to look within themselves, meditate, reflect, internalize, study their own hearts and minds, while at the same time studying and observing humanity at large. That is something that no one can take away from anyone, and all people on all parts of the planet have equal access to.
To me, it makes the most logical sense, and I might add, I have found it to be quite true. It may sound silly to some, but I have honestly learned more about humanity, the world, and myself through thoughtful, open-minded reflection than I have in every textbook and classroom I've ever sat it. Much more than on TV or any magazine... There is more than one type of knowledge, some of which cannot be easily explained or digested, and again this is just me personally, I have experienced, felt and understood things that have no rational basis and have come from nowhere but within myself. I have had what some would call 'supernatural' experiences, incredible moments of 'spiritual' revelation, and what has at times felt like a direct communion with some type of 'divine' conscious energy, expressed as a pure and powerful sense of love, power, and comfort. Experiences I cannot ignore and will never forget. Crazy, huh?

So one may say "well, that's good for YOU, but that stuff doesn't happen to me". And to that, I can only say that there's a reason I feel I've experienced what I have, and it is because I have sought it out. I have reached inward and explored the deeper parts of my mind and 'soul' if you will, and desired to find what's actually there, what the universe has to offer, if anything, what role I play in determining my destiniy, finding my path, and cultivating the unexplainable 'spiritual' feelings that I've felt within myself.
I think everyone may be responsible for doing this for themselves, to look within themselves deeply, find that spark somewhere inside of them and study it, communicate with it, build and grow it, until it is a self-sustaining force in their lives that helps to guide their actions.
I feel like if anywhere, that is where and what 'god' is. I can't tell you if it's a physical being, if it's pure 'consciousness', if it's "alive", wants us to go to "heaven" or anything else, and frankly I don't think that all of those types of details are as relevant as the personal connection that is possible for humans to have with the universal energy that lies within all things and guides us subconsciously and 'metaphysically' in a benevolent way towards attaining our evolutionary peak of human potential, where we will be as close as we can be to 'completing the circuit' of evolution, from single-celled organisms at the beginning, all the way back up to spiritually conscious, harmonoiusly living beings, which are as close as possible to the essence of 'god'.

You can call that a 'theory' if you want, but it's not one that I read somewhere, or just came up with because it sounds cool. It's what I have honestly come to believe and understand through my own personal experiences that I've had. How can I ignore them or brush them aside? After seeing it this way, it makes people's obssessive focusing or Koran or Bible verses for 'clues to god' seem positively ridiculous.

But some people do want rational and/or scientific evidence for god's existence which is understandable. I haven't real a whole lot of books on the subject, but two stand out to me that I have read that might be worth looking in to.

1. Finding God In Physics - This is a more 'theoretical' approach by a guy who takes many mysterious and not well understood areas of science and physics and shows how his model of 'god' explains them all quite nicely. These include gravity, energy, space and time distortion etc... It's not a long book, but it blew my mind, especially because I love science and physics so much.

2. The Case for a Creator - This guy also wrote "The Case for Christ" which some people thought was total crap, I don't know I never read it, but this book is quite good. It doesn't rely on Bible verses, Christianity, or ancient writings to prove anything (thankfully), instead it focuses on science, microbiology, chemistry, physics, evolution, atomic science, quantum mechanics etc., to point out incredible fact after incredible fact with interviews with actual prominent scientists who explain things clearly and without any self-righteous or heavy-handedness. I recommend it.

Obviously no one can force you to believe in god, but if anyone does believe, it should be through personal, internal realization and revelation and not through blind belief in the scrawlings of ancient desert-dwellers...

The End

I agree completely that "religion" should be a personal experience and not be confined to standardized dogma. So many people throughout history have found different ways of reaching "enlightenment", and have come away with somewhat similar, but also somewhat different messages from "God" out of those experiences.

Get comfortable, this will take a minute.....

Now, let's assume that "forever", when applied to our universe, as a literal term does not actually exist but that there was a beginning at some point. Some being or civilization laid the foundation for the scientific laws of nature/the universe. Now, for the sake of this discussion, let's title that creative presence as GOD, and leave the all-powerful/knowing/good aspects out of "Him".

Okay, now let's also assume that this Creator God left/died and has absolutely no direct role in the universe whatsoever, but his creation and laws of nature continue to exist. They are neither "good" nor "bad" but are simply what was created.

Alright, we also know that the human mind (brain) is the most complex and one of the least understood entities in the universe. And let's also assume that human knowledge of "God's" natural laws, while growing all the time, has still barely even scratched the surface.

Therefore, assuming all of the above, when humans have these supernatural experiences, they are actually tapping into little understood areas of the mind, and are simply experiencing natural universal laws that humans have little or no understanding of at this time in history.

So, instead of looping the enlightening experiences that some humans have experienced directly back to an omnipotent, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good God that is somehow with us all the time and has put us on some path that we are ascending to, I would argue that it is just as likely, or more so, that every experience that we ever have is, in fact, natural, and just because humans have not evolved to the point of understanding that natural law yet does not make it supernatural. And that none of "God's" laws are inherently "good' or "bad", but are defined as such by humanity.

I don't know that these assumptions are true, or that I even believe them, but they are certainly feasible, and therefore lends credence to myself for my strong agnostic religion.

Yes, that's fair. It is entirely possible that the majority of 'spiritual' experiences that human have are simply untapped parts of the mind firing in ways that we do not yet understand.
However, to say for certain that that's what is happening when we don't understand it requires a level of faith, since we cannot prove it yet. So it would seem that both possiblities are equally likely.
From my personal experience though, it definitely and without doubt has felt like something outside of myself, a connection with something that is not inside of my body or mind. You could argue that it's simply the brain playing tricks on itself, but if so, they are the most astounding mental pranks ever created. And to what evolutionary purpose? These things tend to be rare for people, profoundly impactful, and deeply 'spiritually' felt. Where in evolution would this have come from, how would it have helped ancient man to survive? In other words why is this in our brain?

Also, I believe in reference to what I said, you said
"instead of looping the enlightening experiences that some humans have experienced directly back to an omnipotent, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good God..."
Whereas I didn't use those particular religious cliches, I explained that what I've experienced as "some type of 'divine' conscious energy, expressed as a pure and powerful sense of love, power, and comfort." Which doesn't necessarily imply those qualities that you find silly. But while we're on the subject... if god did exist hypothetically, and had created the entire universe and all of it's inhabitants, wouldn't that by definition make him omnipotent, all-powerful, all-knowing? I know they are the standard religious sterotypes for 'god', but wouldn't they rationally actually be the qualities he is likely to possess? How could he create the universe but somehow NOT be all-powerful etc...?

All in all, if I hadn't experienced, felt and known what I have, I think I would be in the exact same boat as you, Prasutagus. I generally demand proof, evidence, and reason before I'll 'believe' something. I cannot buy into things purely of faith. Fortunately for me, in this case, I don't have to.

Not necessarily. Although I admit He/It/They would be a damn smart and powerful entity, beyond all human ability at this point, it wouldn't necessarily have to be"All". It would have to be just smart and powerful enough to create the laws of the universe and then get it started (BANG!)

But that doesn't inherently mean that "God" would know the future, or be able to manipulate it's creation, or know our thoughts, feelings, and dreams, and it definitely has no bearing on goodness.

As for your personal experiences/epiphanies, that is all we truly have to go on. We base our religious beliefs on what we have seen and felt. There is more truth in that then any written religious text.

Three simple words - GOOD ORDERLY DIRECTION