WeAreTheKey

Okay so I am on facebook, and i see a friend joined a group called something like "standing with israel" or soemthing of the manner.. curious me clicks on it and the groups description well...kinda made me want to comment.. buuut since i wasnt about to join this group I have no where else to go but the safety of my own forum.. so here is the description:



Commentary:
How do you call one group who kills "scum" but then support the other? Look, I am not about to try and claim that I am some experct on the conflict going on over there, but people tend to forget that when Israel drops a bomb.. they happen to be KILLING PEOPLE AS WELL. And Really why should we support that? Why are we expected tp fall inline behind whatever Israel does?

Im not saying Hamas is really something to follow either.. but we also tend to forget that Hamas ISNT all of palestine.. it is an organization a group and not everyone is off blowing people up and shooting people.(and I am sure the same goes for the israelies.. Look, no mattter how we clump and classify our groups and sects of people the group doesnt become a mindless hive of the same thought, some people on both sides may completly disagree with the "group" they belong tos actions, some may not have anythign to do with it..We cant assume that one side is right and one side is wrong in ANY conflict, really..

People are dying, dying because of the arrogance and hatred and greed of eachother.. and innocent people are being caught in the crossfire..Bombs arent ever going to be the answer, they only create more retailiation (for example.. lok at what is happening, and.. well all of the history of violence really....)

We need to chillax on our whole Arabs V. Jews bullshit.. cause it all is just a bunch a bullshit, that could all have been for the most part prevented had people not been so prone to trying to kill eachother.

As for the whole christians heart jews thing..the statenment made makes me believe that the only reason that the person wants supports israel is to reclaim land(which was hijacked from the indigenous people btw) JUST cause the bible claims that that specific area of the planet is more important than anywhere else.. (obviously that was my short interpritation)

Which personally i find offensive, the fact that sdmeone would support killing our brothers and sisters for a plot of land in the name of god... it sounds to me more like the work of "satan" than any thing from the mind of "god"

Headline:Israel rejects truce call, pursues bombing Gaza


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081231/ap_ ... lestinians




Can some one please explain to me what is "diplomatic" about air raids ??? I thought diplomacy involved discussion not blowing people and buildings up.



Again.. how do you expect civillian casualties to be limited when you are dropping bombs onto a location from an airplane? Bombs cant discern a "civillian" from a "enemy". The shere number of women children and innocent men in any war, and the current situation have MORE than proven that.AND if they know that Hamas is in a certain location or certain people if that truely is their goal, they should be able to use their best trained soliders/various other oporatives to take said targets out personally rather than risk blowing up hundreds of innocent people to stop the "bad guys" sure it is risky but if they truely beleive they need to take out thes "enemies" then they should do it right and not risk people who just are trying to live their lives with out all the bull shit. Could've done it with saddam hussein too.. but it is easier for another country to bomb the hell out of another rather than to actually try and do things with minimal pain and suffering right? probably cheaper as well.. Plus if you bomb the hell out of them then the people the structure of the area is destabilized and much easier to invade.. So I guess if youre a cold hearted beast who wants to take what sint yours youre much more likely to just say WTF and push the button.



The authot obviously wanted to ensure that you dare not forget: Israel might be "wiped off the map" if they dont do this!!! right.. I am so sick of type of manipulation.. it turns my stomach..


I have a theory.. I think Israel is doing this to try an push Iran into defending Palestine from Israel, furthing the US's invasion of the middle east, there is no way we would make the move against Iran.. not with everyone expecting it..
So who better to act for us than Israel?? Right?? They are our key pawn in the chess board over there and Iran is the only force who could really stand beside them.. It is all a part of the game. It is sick and crafty, and seems perfectly timed since old bushy is gonna be moving along in 21 days.. How convient it is that all this starts hitting the fan right as we are about to enter a new administration.

I very much agree with you. This all goes back to the same problem humans have been having for a loooong time, which is our amazing ability to alter our view of "morality" when we've been led to believe certain things about what's taking place.
As an example: 50,000 people are killed in U.S. car accidents every year. That is a massive number. And yet we don't see anyone demonstrating in the streets or very upset at all over it.
20,000 people die from flu-related illlness every single year in the U.S. Do we act like its very tragic? Not really.
But then 3,000 die in a terror attack and it's the most tragic, awful, horrendous, terrible, mind-numbing thing that we've EVER EXPERIENCED.
Granted, it was dramatic, but isn't our perspective of death and tragedy just a bit off? Or like, maybe, a LOT?

Yes it is. And the same thing applies to war. Americans die in Iraq - freaking tragic. Iraqi's die in Iraq - meh...whatever....
Israelis die in war - Horrible, they're our ALLY! Palestinians die in war - meh....whatever.
They probably had it coming or something. Or some other vague justification that I can't quite wrap my mind around for why I don't feel guilty about the bad guy's civilian population getting blown to smithereens...

It's all pretty demented and goes to show how well we can fool our own minds into believing what we want to believe. Morality, no matter how clearly etched into any given holy book, is quite flexible at all times it seems.

The Israelis have been by far the more aggressive, deadly, hostile and careless party in this current "battle", and we're all supposed to tuck ourselves in at night comfortable with the knowledge that their murderous, destructive campaign of terror is all good and justified because Hamas was supposedly firing some rockets into Israel. Even if there WERE rockets going into Israel, how do we know that they came from Hamas, and not just pissed off Palestinian people? And no matter where they came from, we are supposed to believe that Israel, with its U.S.-backed multi-billion dollar defense budget, undoubtedly loaded with high-res spy satellites, thermal imaging unmanned drones, etc etc....cannot locate where hot, flaming rockets are originating from, then go to that location and deal with the people actually responsible?

No, no....that would be FAR TOO EASY....it's much more advantageous to use a few rockets lobbed at you to declare ALL-OUT NO-HOLDS-BARRED WARFARE against the tiny strip of land that is strategically valuable to your nation's grander schemings....

What gets me is how unbelievably stupid we're all supposed to play, while getting fed 90% Pro-Israel propaganda from the lap-dog media.

Let's cut to the chase. They're trying to provoke Iran. Iran, who the Bushies tried and failed to start a new war with directly. They want it bad. It's part of their plans, damnit! They can't just ignore that crucial geopolitical piece of the puzzle! So direct action and rallying of the U.S. populace fails, resort to indirect, secondary provocation. It's all they've got. They tried this in 2006 as well, when Israel started that pathetic, disastrous war with Lebanon. This is all about Iran, and therefore, collateral damage is acceptable in the form of worldwide disdain for your actions. Or ANY damage for that matter. Even 3000 of your own citizens, a very very small price to pay for what they get to achieve.

You are SOOO right about perspective playing such a huge role in actions regarding morality. I think that one key piece of why that is (other than media propaganda) is the idea that there is acceptable, unintentional loss of human life (car accidents, disease) versus unacceptable, intentional loss of human life (murder, war), which is much scarier.

I don't think one can really argue that 10,000 people perishing from a volcanic eruption is the same as 3,000 people perishing at the hands of airplanes being intentionally rammed into skyscrapers.

Or, more to the point, a semi-truck driver accidentally falling asleep at the wheel and hitting a family in a mini-van versus a kidnapper sneaking into a home and swiping a toddler for whatever heart-wrenching, unimaginable reasons that happens. The truck driver took more lives, but the kidnapper actually committed a crime that would demand far worse consequences if caught. Unintentional accident (socially acceptable) vs Intentional malice (socially unacceptable).

Of course, I'm with you on the idea that our government has propagandized us into these "wars on terror" and that 9/11 was an inside job, at least to some extent. And I also agree that the swapping of innocent lives is an immoral action that, even if 9/11 was not an inside job, makes the retaliatory actions of the U.S. (and Israel in their conflict) completely dispicable.

As for Iran, I just don't know. It's so hard to be so far removed and have any real idea of truly what is going on, who are the instigators, and what everyones intentions are. I think you definitely could be right, but I just don't know. That Israel/Palestine/Jew/Muslim conflict is just so ancient and effed up that I can't hardly even wrap my mind around it.

(Forgive me for the parts in ALL CAPS, I had the screen minimized while at work and didn't notice....ergghhh...)

Yeah I think I could've used better examples of people's perspectives on tragedy, because it's clear that intentional crimes are more "evil" so to speak. But to me at least, loss of human life is still loss of human life, so I wouldn't say that 10,000 people dying from a volcano is the same as 3,000 dying in a terror attack. I would say that the volcano disaster is 7,000 people more tragic.
It's just that natural/unavoidable deaths come with sadness alone, while intentional crimes infuse our sadness with other powerful emotions like rage, defensiveness, retribution & revenge etc...
I don't know, it just gets me how people tend to act mortified when someone is killed, but just brush it off when they fall dead from disease or something. The impact is the same on the person who died: they're dead. The impact is essentially the same for the family and friends of the victim: they're gone forever.
So what is truly different?!

aNYWAY, WHEN THE INTELLIGENCE OPERATIONS OF THE u.s. ARE EXAMINED AT ANY GIVEN TIME THROUGH THE LAST CENTURY, IT HAS BEEN PACKED WITH SECRETIVE WARFARE AND POWER-GRABS IN COUNTRIES ALL OVER THE WORLD. FROM OUR BACKING AND ARMING OF THE MUJAHADEEN IN AFGHANISTAN IN THE 80'S TO THE UNDERMINING AND ASSASSINATIONS OF MULTIPLE CENTRAL AMERICAN LEADERS IN THE 50'S, 60's, 70's and 80's, we have been more than willing to invade, undermine, declare war, or assassinate whoever we damn well please if it furthers our geostrategic goals. And considering that America became the world's lone superpower, I'd say that their efforts were pretty successful. And when you're on top, you have even more leverage to achieve whatever you want, and what we want is security, power, influence and control. In order to acquire these things, we must gain a viable and authoritative foothold in the middle east, where the world's oil is largely located.
Remember Bush's famous "Axis of Evil"? As you may have guessed by now it had nothing to do with evil, and everything to do with dominating the middle east.
First, we tackled Afghanistan, home of Al Qaeda whom we helped create, fund and arm, and which is critically important to our building of oil pipeliens to and from the Caspian sea. We even installed Hamid Karzai as "President" who (gasp!) used to work for Unocal.
Ok, then we go and all-out invade Iraq, destroy it, kill their leader, and set up permanent military bases to ensure a long-term dominating presence.
So now we're fighting "two wars" against terrorism, on two sides of one particular country...Iran. Who just happens to also be listed in the Axis of Eeeeeevil! And then, once Ahmedinejad takes power, we immediately begin a hardcore propaganda campaign against te guy, to get the public to despise him for reasons they don't even understand, and then slowly build up the banging of the war drums and hope desperately to ride into war with Iran on the emotional coattails of 9/11 and the fear it stirs up in us.
You needed to look no further for blatant evidence of our desire to knock over Iran next thaN Fox News, the main artery of Neo-Con propaganda, which was pushing relentlessly for a declaration of war with Iran. They had hour-long specials on the evil and looming threat of the madman Ahmedinejad, and how we had to act NOW to ensure our safety. It was despicable, really.
But lo and behold, the public wasn't convinced, and they just couldn't rally the necessary threshold of public support, and had to revert to plan B. The baiting of Iran into armed conflict in any sneaky, subtle way possible.
Israel's 2006 war with Lebanon is a perfect example. The media was constantly wondering aloud if and when IRAN might come to the aid of their "proxy" nation lEBANON. wE CERTAINLY HOPED THEY WOULD, BUT THEY DIDN'T FALL FOR IT.
aND NOW, iSRAEL IS AGGRESSIVELY STARTING WAR WITH ANOTHER GROUP OF PEOPLE,AND WHAT DO WE HEAR?!?
"lOOMING BEHIND THIS CURRENT WAR IS iRAN! wILL THEY STEP IN AND COME to the aid of the Palestinians!?!"
It just reeks of trying to provoke Iran.
Remember that gunboat incident last year in the Straight of Hormuz, when some Iranian gunboats supposedly surrounded a U.S. ship and threatened it? Uh-huh.... They're trying so hard.....

Anyway, if you read Confession of an Economic Hitman, and the other book by the author, he goes into detail about how and why the U.S. engages in the foreign policy activities that we do. And he should know, he worked for the C.I.A. and did a lot of this stuff himself.
Basically, the stated reasons for any country's war-like actions are almost never the real reasons for doing so. It's pretty ugly.

And, uhh.... I think we (or I)'ve gotten off-track from the original topic here
I've been typing this in segments over a period of two hours, so I apologize for the messy, disjointed lengthiness...

I want to eat your delisciously information filled brain..........

I have more to say but not enough time currently...Sooo.. That is all you get for now...

It's all good, Transfixed. You are much more read and informed on the Iran/Israel/Middle East subject than I, and I'm always happy to learn what people read and know to be better informed myself. Although I'm not sure that I've got the cannibalistic desires for your tasty brain treats that Alluscion has.

Now, going back to the more philosophical argument regarding loss of life:

I agree with you that the tragedy of accidental or unintentional loss of life is just as great as those caused intentionally. However, intentional criminal acts, especially killing, are acts that cannot be tolerated and the criminals should be forcefully sought out and harshly punished. That's why, when I (and most Americans) initially believed that 9/11 was fully a terrorist act of murder I was in full support of us hunting down the murderers and bringing them to justice.



To go back to my sleepy truck driver vs child kidnapper/murderer analogy: Let's say the truck driver had no intention of hurting anyone, he was just doing his job, trying to deliver a load on time to make money for his family when he accidentally falls asleep for a moment at the wheel, crosses the center line, and goes head-on with a mother and her four kids. Terribly, terribly sad and tragic, no question.

Then, lets take a man who spots a very young child, stakes out their home, breaks in quietly in the middle of the night, steals him/her out of their bed, and takes them to a cabin in the woods where the child is raped and tortured for a week, then ultimately murdered and discarded like garbage.

So here's the difference:

I truly believe that, if I was the father in both cases, that through my grief, sadness, and pain, I could ultimately forgive the truck driver, for he never intended any harm, and truly wish and hope that he could also recover from his pain and guilt and move on to a happy life with his family. I would not seek punishment for the man.

The murderer and worse to my child would never receive either forgiveness nor leniency from me and I would only hope and wish that he would come to realize what he'd done and would live out his life in pain and torment for the horrendous acts that he performed.

Ultimately, the two tragedies are quite different to me and should be acted on differently and responded to differently by society. The end result of a person being dead does not always mean that the circumstances leading to, nor the actions resulting from, should be the same.

That is all I was really trying to get at. I do realize that the reactions to the tragedies can and should be quite different. I only wanted to point out that the tragedy is the same, and that is what has been massively blown out of proportion for so many people.
The whole "Never Forget 9/11" thing where we act like it was the most tragic thing since the Holocaust, and we ought to feel the deepest sadness in the world every year on the anniversary, and all 3000 people get their names read solemnly in a big, sad ceremony, and it is generally seen as one of the hugest tragedies ever to take place, it just doesn't make much sense compared to so many other things that are far more tragic. Like, I dunno, the tsunami that killed 100,000 people on Christmas a few years ago. Or the genocide in Rwanda or Darfur. Or.....the 100,000 or so civilians killed in the current Iraq "war"... all of that is small potatoes to our collective American conscience.
I agree and understand the whole punishment/anger/consequences aspect of the tragedies and that it does make them different in some ways. I think the main thing is that our incredible level of detachment from what happens to people in other countries across the globe allows us to completely distance ourselves from ANY real level of tragedy no matter who is involved (unless its US soldiers of course), so instead of seeing things in terms of the tragic nature of the deaths, we see them in a sterilized, political framework, where our "allies" dying is a terrible thing and our "enemies" dying is perfectly acceptable, even when the killing spills over into the innocent civilian population.
Which it always does.
Soooooooo, tying back into the original post, I say screw Israel for doing what they're doing, and screw the Palestinian people responsible for firing rockets into Israel. It all leads to the same exact tragedies, and continues to perpetuate this retarded Middle East conflict ever onward..
And by the way, my brains are quite sour and pungent, I do not recommend them at all.

Last night I read an article that stated since this whole fiasco started back up the following lives have been lost (since i think it was December 27

Palestinians= 814 roughly half of which are civillians
Israel= 13 in which 10 of them were soliders. Leaving 3 civillians.


latest article has more break down


un believable that anyone could find that in any way an acceptible casualty...
i also read that apparently israel asked bush for some bombs to attack...drumroll please....Iran!
And supposedly, he declined...

this is all so vile.. i am gonna go take a bath and wash all these upset feelings momentarily away......

Yeah, we do get a "detachment" from people across the globe. Like their lives are less valuable than ours because they live in Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, or wherever. 4,000 or so U.S. soldier casualties over 5 years is given tragic gasp, while a report of 60,000 or so civilian Iraqi/Afghani casualties is collectively responded to with far less emotion than daily numbers on the frickin Dow Jones. It's effed up perspective. Many Americans are much more concerned with their 401k balance than bombs dropping on Baghdad.

But who cares, they're just a bunch of stinkin hell-bound muslims who'd just as soon kill us, right. Why should we care?.....

This country needs a serious introspective check and evaluation on our collective ethics/morality.

I agree, the level of humanity seems to be missing when it comes to violence.. well anywhere really, it seems like if it isnt happenign directly to you or some one you know, or some one who has some connection to you, it is insignificant.. people dont try and relate, dont try to see the other sides perspective, arent willing to feel for anyone..unless it is anger....

Its the manner inwhich despite all of our intelectual, societal advancements "war" has remained a thriving concept.. not cause it is right,reasonable or necessary, but because it is easiest, reactonary and thrives in denial and detachment.

The more we aloow ourselves to see others as humans, as bretheren and as equals the less likely we are to try and kill them over all the minute and childish things we have been fighting for/over for all of time.
It is time to grow up, humanity, for real.

You guys are both right on.
I however, for the record, never aloow myself...
I just cannot imagine what that would be like.

{edit} ALLOW.

Tonight I heard something on the Malloy show, that if I had been living on the west coast, I would've lost my dinner.

He played something from the BBC that is evidence that Israel undid the Gaza cease fire. I tell you, I'm pissed off that this country is letting them get away it.

900 Palastinians dead, at least 300 of which are children. For those of you who have kids, or nieces or nephews, imagine Canada invading this country claiming the right to do so in the name of NATIONAL SECURITY. Now imagine most of your family was killed by the RCMP; as Mike would say - what are you going to do about it?

Sorry for the rant, and if this doesn't belong in this thread, please move it. I fear it might not belong here.

Hey man, don't worry about ranting, I do it all the time. And it belongs here, sure. That's what we're talking about after all!
I am inclined to believe that this current Israel/Gaza debacle was fully planned and executed for reasons that aren't being publicly stated, most likely to provoke and test other nearby nations, like Iran.
So to hear that Israel was the one that may have broken the cease-fire is completely unsurprising. They even attacked a U.N. convoy the other day and killed two U.N. troops. Nice, huh?
Just remember to give them your unflinching pseudo-patriotic support, they're our ally after all!

Oh, super. Last week, Israel attacked a U.N. convoy and killed two U.N. troops. Whoops! An honest mistake perhaps.
But now this morning...
They've gone and bombed the U.N. headquarters in Gaza City, destroying food, supplies and buildings being used by refugees already fleeing the relentless Israeli attacks.
How thoughtful of them.
Oh and they also shot up some media buildings, including the Associated Press...
They're claiming that it was because they were taking fire from the U.N. building, though how the U.N. would allow people to fire rockets from their headquarters is beyond me...
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28651944

Even IF what they said was true, which is hard to believe.. Their actions were completly unreasonable.. I am sorry but they claim they are trying to minimalize innocent loss, that they are the ones defending themselves that they arethe victims.. They should no better than to take such a foolish move as to attack the "neutral safe ground"

Attacking the UN and attacking refugee aide and camps is just plain crazy. I mean They basically are acting like they are beyond any form of punishment, retaliation orany act of humanity. If they truely were attacked, it is better to fall back and move on rather than to take such a strategic flop. It is a HUGE deal to attack the UN, I mean that is in a way attacking alot of countries(symbolically) and not to mention alot of the resources for innocent, wounded terrified bystanders displaced by this ridiculous bloodshed.


To just use the excuse of "well we were being attacked" as a "get out of jail free card".. Its ridiculous! If that becomes the norm, we might as well just all go around lying about any counrty villiage town or hell, stranger we meet and use it as an excuse to do whatever.. throw away all strategy, decency, logic and reality in a time of war.. Shit if all that goes out the door when war is involved, we might as well just toss it all together! I mean some one some where is always at war!.. Okay slightly off topic and it doesnt really solve any issues ....

I just get so fed up when it comes to stuff like war/violence.. It just has become(well always has been) so commnplace and excused by humans over the centuries and frankly I see it as juvenille, and mentally,spiritually, stunted to continue in the act of violence on eachother.

I am tired of living in a society (speaking for all cultures-not just USA)that glorifies fighting and repeats the prior generations actions despite seeing the total lack of gain, the total loss of life, the pain suffering, and ignorance of all involved. I would imagine that if a god spirit exists, and it is watching humans perpetually repeat the mistakes of the past my divine mind would just eternally shake in frustrated dissapointment. For gods sake, we all know it isnt right...and yet, we delude ourselves into doing it, supporting it, and perpetuating it by teaching it to our children... Im sick of this and deeply pray that one day (preferably soon) consciousness will some how be sparked into following in the opposite direction than that which we have revised over and over in our history books.....

Well theres my rant today, obviously it isnt just about JUST Israel and Gaza, it is about all of us..Its just since we despite still being in war with TWO other countries, that apparently isnt enough to keep the headlines firing up, so we have Some one elses war to focus on for the time being (mind you while countless others are I am sure still dying as I speak)